I don't think developers are as divided as the follow-up article was suggesting. If you read the responses, developers were divided mostly on whether it was good marketing strategy or not. However, most seemed to share the same skepticism about Sun's ability to deliver market-leading GUI technology. I think that is pretty telling.

I thought OS X was already THE java desktop. BTW, since sun can do whatever it wants with the trademark, & since many or most hear would agree that they may be diluting the brand and associating it with 'crud', is there not anyone here to see the folly of the whole recent 'privatization' of 'everything' push in government. I mean obviously SUN has the ability to majorly screw java up, etc, etc... sorry if my post seems wandering. I'm sure reading JDJs bogus pseudo logica had nothing to do with my inability to think critically about ANYTHING... sheesh

If Java is limited to the enterprise, then it will fail. It needs a desktop presence. If Sun's current initiative improves the Java Desktop Application experience, then it will make Java work better at all levels.

Most of our Java lies in desktop applications that use enterprise resources. Some of our work is entirely at the server side, but almost all is a mix, depending on the functionality level. Further, we have occasional standalone applications that add to our customer's happiness. For example, if we have a server side file importer, we might well use the exact same classes in a client side program, and get the benefit of all that tested code.

A weakness in the server side usage has been the desktop. If we cannot make an app that is interesting and expressive for the user in java, then we have to write the app in another language. Then we do not get the benefit of sharing libraries between the two.

Perhaps more importantly, there are more desktop app developers out there than server side developers, and they demand cheaper tools that do more. They also switch toolchains more easily. Eclipse and IDEA are both better tools for server development because of the support system for client desktop applications. Were Java only for command line and server apps, I suspect we would not have these tools at the price points and quality levels they are now at.

Did I mention that many of these companies have Linux, Windows, and Mac desktops and servers? There are few languages and dev kits that allow us to work with all three, depending on task.

So, to the extent that the new initiatives make Java work better for desktop apps on all operating systems, I approve. I believe this will also have benefits on our ability to use Java on the server side, through common libraries and tuning benefits.

I do find JDJ getting more shrill and alarmist. They also do seem to be focussing more on .NET than on Java of late, even in the Java publications. I do not care what their editorial focus is, but I do care that I get value out of reading their publication. Thus, to maintain that value, I would also encourage them to focus on making better Java code.

> Once upon a time, we talked about CODE,
> techniques for doing things with CODE,
> and how to write CODE better.

Paul, I hope it won't hit you hard once your job gets moved offshore.

Or how about getting sued by the new SCO-like Sun circus proclaiming "the World Is Not Enough"?

This whole issue is indicative of why I don't read Java magazines anymore.

Once upon a time, we talked about CODE, techniques for doing things with CODE, and how to write CODE better.

Now, the market is full of wannabies, so all the articles are about stupid little politics and social agendas.

I am a developer, I write CODE for a living. Could the "Developers Journal" actually talk about developing and not about market strategies (what do developers know about marketing anyway).
In the 80's any magazine focused on developers was about 50% (or more) CODE, you see what we have now (0%-5%).
Imagine, a programming magazine about programming.

Reading about Java vs. .NET kind of makes me want to throw up ... There will always be those who are comfortable with one or the other technology and will defend it to the last breath. I honestly think that both technologies are good with both having their pros and cons. As for me, I work with both. And being a computer geek I prefer Java because I think .NET is a pure money making machine, a result of excellent marketing campaign from Microsoft. In terms of value - it is good, or even very good because it is made solely for those so called "developers" who don't know much about computer science but know very well how to drag-and-drop and modify automatically generated code.
Java, on the other hand can do anything and everything - from heavily scientific computing to computer games. And I do agree that it is not the best fit for the business environment - .NET is, but it is so much more and of so much greater value than .NET is.

Ron, you must be a newbie out of school. You don't know what your talking about. Millions might HAVE BEEN ripping $$$ off of companies by the manhours it takes to develop using Java. But millions are ditching there unix and vms boxes in place of server 2003 or 2000 and are migrating old apps over to .Net. I wounder why Ron? Most IT guys I know at large companies are having to know both but prefer .Net because their intranet servers and clients are all Windows. But one thing you did say I wish the Java heads would remember is "Sun owns the Java brand, and they can use it any way they #!@*! well please." should take that advise about Microsoft. Sun needs to follow Microsoft and be more creative if it is going to stay competitive. One more thing Ron, before you attempt to vainly dog this magazine, go write your own article.

It is incredible how Java went so far, being propelled by a host of developers who liked the coolness of the language, with complete disregard to its complete inefficiency.
Everybody knows that Java is the worse platform for any project: don't believe it? Just check the response time of any Java powered site, and compare it with anything (yes, anything) else.
By the way: THIS SITE IS POWERED BY COLDFUSION!!!

To Scott McNealy and Sun fans:

If you cannot beat the competition, join them. Find out how Oracle, IBM, BEA .... 20 companies are making $$$ out of Java. Each one has a different business model.

It is about time Sun makes $ too. What is the formula? That is the $$million dollar question.

I don't quite take the extreme position elaborated by Ron above. At the same time, it is all well and good to theorize but there is a serious challenge that the Java world must undertake. Defending the patch from the threat of .NET is the order of the day just in case anyone didn't notice. We need to be unified in this or we are doomed to a fate worse than COBOL.

In respect to that I think Alan Williamson should either get on board with Java or get off the case completely.

That being said, Geralds thought leading republican point of view (above), although provocative, is a master stroke of nothingness - no chance mate. Such is the life of fellowship in the kingdom of a benevolent dictator.It was only a matter of time.

Maybe what we need is the ultimate freedom that open source offers the community.Lava (or C augmented 5th with a flat 7th) can go where Linux has gone... juggernaut to broader adoption.

Let's have an Indian parliament on this...

Too bad the JDJ idiots don't know anything about Java. Talk about hijacking the Java brand! These doofuses think they know Java, but in reality they're just selling hype. Buncha loozers.

Java, when used properly, solves all of the cross-platform issues that plague developers today.

Oh, did I mention that these guys also publish .NET developer's journal? Of course they do! Why wouldn't they? As is typical with modern-day so-called "media", they play both sides, trying to stir up as much controversy as possible.

What the hell does a Java desktop have to do with Java? Who knows, and who cares!!! Sun owns the Java brand, and they can use it any way they damn well please.

Meanwhile, there are millions of us Java developers out there making a killing off of this wonderful language that Sun has been so gracious as to provide to us free of charge. Because of Java, we're able to compete against the .NET losers in a big way, and stomp their butts all over the place. Why? Because Java is truly cross-platform, as long as you have half a brain and apply a little common sense in your design.

What's the problem? Sorry, I don't see it.

These guys are idiots. Don't buy their worthless rag of a magazine. Or any of the other competing rags that they also happen to sell.

Evidently Sun's core business ("Solaris boxes") is doomed and the only "asset" left is the Java "brand" that's why the stick Java onto everything further diluting the brand that is already out of control. Anyway, to avoid further SCO-like suprises from the Sun circus I suggest forking off Java and proclaiming the Java Republic.